I doubt that I have walked past a moose without noticing. I agree the 329 PD is ideal with Lower Recoil .44 Magnum Ammo 255 gr. I for one have never been bear hunting, always wanted and dreamed of going some day. Humans travel about 21MPH tops.. Bears.. 35mph.. Theres no such thing as overkill. I like the S&W 460 as well. While not nearly as large as a puma, Ive shot three rabid racoons around here. But, he says, for now, money is tight and he likes his old service size S . The BFR 45-70 was not mentioned. I was helping a friend butcher a hog he had raised. wild boars He put his paw on his shoulder. I hope that you had a good camera and a long lens to shoot it. Mace or a .45 Colt? For me, Id say whatever you have at the time is better than nothing. You need to be able to kill a bear in a moments notice, most times a bear is just doing what they do , when suddenly a stupid hiker startles the wild animal and It sees you as a threat ! My gun will push the strong 300-grain hollowpoints to just under 1,200 fps, and thats a formula that can end a confrontation. Do I want to use one as my sidearm? There are too many variables involved to deliberatly under gun yourself on a planned trip in bear country. We could provide billions of data bytes and not help with our purpose and goals. 10 mm HAH why not hit the Bear with your Purse? Note on BLACK BEARS they have become highly predatory in Alaska. Cork Grahams rig. Personally, Ive only seen a grizzly bear from the comfortable confines of a vehicle, but that boar in Yellowstone Park made a lasting impression. Shot 3 whitetail doe in the noodle with that rifle, and it wasn,t graphic. With a 5 inch un-ported barrel, 300 grain hard cast solids, cut an X on the point with a fine hack saw about 1/8 of an inch deep. However many decades ago, I was a PPC competitor. 50 round box should last a lifetime. Anyhow, nice article and just consider the glock 10 mm if you are comfortable with a semi-auto tyoe pistol. Lmaoand excellent thought below about the 454 brass trimmed down. Year later, shot a black bear same ammo, but out of a desert eagle way better results. 38 special will kill you just as dead as a . Little meat damage and with a WC or Semi WC will certainly do the job. Most rangers will tell you a $50. feral dogs chasing after and retrieving spent brass. Si saw a black bear last year, and got lost running away from it. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. I think anybody going into bear country should read the article about bear defense guns and ammo @ garrettcartridges.com This should answer most questions on the subject. and the 45 colts are equal if used in modern stout pistols. and driving a rig your not in the Alaskan brush. The authors well-worn, and well-loved Ruger Blackhawk in .45 Colt is a perfect handgun for bear country. What we can do is provide a framework to understand what average conditions might look like, and whether those are reasonably viable for a shot from the average shooter to harvest a cougar or mountain lion in the fewest number of shots possible, i.e., ethically. There are some real men out there who have seen a bear in a zoo and have shot their 500 SW 4 times 6 years ago. The reverse is not true. Supposedly it will go through armor vests, 1.5 inches of steel, etc. Mr. Shoemakers observations about irrational fear, opinions based on nonexperience or shilling, and the need for multiple hits in a hurry are the most astute and real world in this series. The only explanation that I can think of is that it was pumped full of adrenaline. Bear spray works on mountain lions, and the concept behind its usage remains the same for many large carnivores. do revolvers. Jim Farmer sounds like you have too many guns and cant decide on which one to take. Lets hope that we can all avoid the threat of mauling, but if youre unfortunate enough to have it happen to you, be prepared. In Alaska, we not only have to deal with the common two-legged variety of vermin found in every place in the world, but also the large, four-legged beasts that can either kill and trample you with their hooves, or rip you apart with their claws and teeth; its the latter which draw hunters to the Last Frontier with high-power, large caliber rifles. Defensive purse swinging! Laying out the reasonable course of events leading up to a legitimate use of force against Bears (or Lion) would make it more difficult to prosecute (IMO for political / ideological reasons) citizens who defend themselves against bear (or lion) attacks. I have a CZ52 that shoots the old PPsH Tokarev LMG round. Black bears and mountain lions can be killed if they cause death or injury to other people. He saved them both, barely, with his .338 rifle. NEDERLAND A mountain lion killed after it attacked two dogs in a neighborhood near Nederland on Dec. 27 had no dog remains in its gut when it died, according to a Colorado Parks and Wildlife necropsy report. My Ruger Blackhawk in .45 Colt with handloads, 300-grains, 1,200 fps (1,192 to be exact) goes with me on a lot of black bear hunts with hounds. Mountain lions have a size advantage, a power advantage, and more weapons in their arsenal to kill a wolf. I carry both in a Blackhawk Alaska Guide Holster in the field, and in a Galco leather CCW holster under my belt in town: since being on TV, I learned that stalkers can be just as dangerous a charging bear. I saw a beautiful Blond one in Glacier Natl Park a couple of years ago. You have to be a reloader or know a reloader to get this, but it is well worth it. However, if you're going to deploy bear spray against a mountain lion, then you need to make sure of a few things. I read with interest the side arms in bear country. Option to use 45 colt 454 cas and 460 mag. While attempting to release the Grizzly an accident occurred with the bear on top of Find where Forrest Service websites describe the various stages of Bear attacks and when to shoot in self defense. @1,200+ FPS and a 300gr. while you are on the road system you are in cell phone communications 90% of the time. If I know ahead of time that Im heading into black bear country, I like to carry my big handgun: a Ruger Blackhawk, chambered in .45 Colt, stainless finish with a 7 -inch barrel. 480 ruger penetrated steel railroad plates by hitting so hard, the steel cracked and shattered. I would have no reservation about using it on a mountain lion. This would include insanely lar. Look it up. So, I got a Marlin Guide Gun in .45-70Gvt. When the smoke cleared the bear was on its back waving its legs. I have been involved in stopping several black bears intent on doing us damage and have stood two brown bear charges without shooting; although in one of them I probably should have pulled the trigger. 7 tours of duty (Coast Guard) and 11 years of volunteer EMT3 doing Bush & Mountain rescue all over Alaska, 10 years as AK Hunter Safety instructor and professional brown bear photographer + successful hunter and competition shooter, and trapper. Long story short, Phil was forced to put the grizzly down. This one took exception.) Regardless, I draw the line at 10mm and 45 Super as my bottom 2 choices in bear country. Until you dump a 15 rd mag into some calibrated ballistics gel, hold your amateur and mis-informed comments for all the other mommys wanna bes. You must have a glutton for punishment! Companions showed up shooting to save the day. Even if it is based upon a reasonable extrapolation from current self defense doctrine. Crossdraw holster. So, no .38s but the only options arent .44s, 454s, 460s 475 linebaugh or 500s. A starting load of 3.9 grains was decided on, and the first rounds were loaded up. Ok Rambo ! Im glad she now carries the Liberty ammo. This attack from 2008 shows the utility of a handgun for defense against predators in the wild. They can be found throughout the state apart from the southeastern desert and the Central Valley. Florida State Lawmakers Introduce 'Constitutional Carry', The Staccato CS Brings Real Performance to the Concealed, Meet ROSE: SIG SAUER's Complete Concealed Carry Solution for, Honolulu Issues First Concealed Carry License. That winter, I shot a buffalo @ 50 yards with 300 grain federal cast core in a ruger .44 carbine. vermin such as raccoon, skunk, possum, etc. A powerful handgun with a tough, deep penetrating bullet is the key. 7.6225 Red Army Standard 86gr. The lion had killed the livestock but had not eaten them, The Mercury News reported. Commander. The 148 grain SC is great as long as it is a hollow base, and loaded backwards with the hollow base facing out. .357 magnum will probably work as long as you're not running into any bears .44 magnum is preferable. There are videos out there that show this gun/ammo combo going through both sides of the current US Army helmet. I do reload them hot. Of course you can imagine the hysterical reactions that suggestion creates.. I placed a dollar bill next to the track and took a photo. In general, 10mm, .44 magnum, or better seems like the best choices (including .454 Casull). Spent half my working career in Alaska, hunted, fished, hiked. Hard cast is king. If there is any wind at all, the fog will only travel about 3 feet before it turns and drifts in the direction of the wind. When confronted by a threat.. you need to tick off a very short, well reasoned and practiced list. Again, please keep in mind that we only have black bears to contend with here in New York. If I find it I will post it. hard cast projectile @ 1,300+ fps. After all bears are quite well armed are they not? Told me to that towards evening they made Camp during Daylight Hours. most likely you sleep in your rig also. They understood the dangers. Hollow points sacrifice penetration for larger wound channel . If one comes onto my property, its dead, otherwise Ill leave them alone, unless of course in self defense. Hollow points are better for stopping large game if you are pushing a fairly large bullet, 250 grain and larger, at fairly high velocity 1400 fps +the larger bullet with the higher velocity will give you enough penetration for the hollow point to do its job. Your bear protection gun is never going to be your regular carry gun, no long afternoons firing box after box it is a single purpose tool. I believe that model Ruger is single action, right? bear which turned on him. Also the .454 C uses a rifle primer to handle the high pressure generated whereas the 45 Colt uses a pistol primer. I sure wanted to sit and talk to him about all the storys they brought back. Hard cast lead or perhaps some modern all brass penetrators would probably be better. I have a Springsfield 460 Rowland and 400 CarBon for bears and back cup with 357 Mag in a Tarus 7 shoot to stop any bear. If you carry an effective caliber/bullet combination for 400+ pound bears, wild boars, and feral hogs, you are carrying way too much gun for coyotes and small mountain lions. Oaf, that was funny! What do you know! Dick Casulls brainchild improves the ballistics of the .45 Colt even in modern handguns and provides an entirely different performance level for those who can handle it. Attacks continued and now a lion is dead. fresh kill 1994 watch online. No semi-auto makes the grade except perhaps the .50 AE, but most ammo for that fails due to bullets. My 10mm load is right at 700. If you choose a 9mm in bear country, you dont want hollow points but maybe something like Lehigh Defense Extreme Penetratorwith its solid copper bullet. So that information has sort of vanished.. Not your problem when facing a legitimate threat from a bear. If the Hellsing 454 Casull is ever made (semi- auto), I want one. Absolute .357 Mag in a revolver for me is a minimum. Ill stick 66% of kills among collared mountain lions were mule deer. You will only have only one chance to prove fluffy wont kill you. On a personal note I dont like Once you get over 300gr. Sep 25, 2007. I would recomend holding off until the bear is so close that he would be hard to miss and then not shooting any higher than nostril level. Changing, yes, but then you look at the ravages of the recent volcanoes and all the CO2 released. There was also a guy who used the Air Force M6 .22 LR/.410 GA over/under rifle/shotgun. Its the sick, injured, old one that will risk human contact. Ive never seen too many other rounds do so much damage. I no longer use trick bullets or many jacketed bullets. If it was acting as weird as they say, they were idiots for not assuming that it was rabid. Their large hind legs also make them excellent at sprinting for short distances. Made me wonder Dont these manufacturers know that hard cast is more effective? Perhaps they were just given that name to sound scary, but are really made for 2 legged predators? Which brings up the old but true adage. Radically Invasive Projectile G2 ammo works! Everyone Practices Cancel Culture | Opinion, Deplatforming Free Speech is Dangerous | Opinion. A mountain lion's skull is thicker than that of a human, and they can survive shots from firearms that are much more powerful. Natural enemies include other large predators such as bears, lions, and wolves. By the time I am loaded with bow, backpack, and tree stand, I am at 50 plus pounds and I am 50+. Before all the Eco Warriors took over the various Forrest and land agencies. But .380's tend to be small handguns, and with a mountain lion if it's within the accurate range of a small pocket gun you're likely already dead. On average, a mountain lion killed one deer a week. A large bore hot load can be a challenge to control and difficult for multiple shots, while something like a 10mm in a good semi-auto allows for powerful rounds and multiple shots rapidly fired on target for many. I enjoyed the article. Shock Wave or the Tac-12 pistols leave a bigger hole ! The 357 mag is much better then the 40S&W as well. Mountain lions are apex predators with the ability to kill elk, mule deer, and coyotes with ease - but they aren't usually aggressive toward hikers and their dogs. I looked at my knife on my hip and quickly decided thst wouldnt work. Department spokesperson Peter Tira told LA Times: "It's been a day-to-day, hourly kind of situation. Found the bullet in the other ear, Weighed 270 grains. I carry a SW 500 in a chest rig as backup. Park staff monitor the population through satellite GPS collars, remote cameras and . Anyway, Ive had my share of sleepless nights in a tent in Alaska and try to heed to basics keep food well away from camp, cook away from camp, dont camp on trails, avoid cubs like the plague, if approached give ground, etc. The 454 would probably be better and I did have a 500 S&W in 4 inch but as heavy as it was I figured it was easier to carry a 12 ga pump on a sling and let someone carry out the meat while I protected them. I took a 29 S&W 6 .44 mag. bobcats A bear will cover 50 yards in less than 2 seconds in a charge. Brutal to shoot, but effective. Carry the biggest freaking Gun you can shoot very very well ! Why are you people just bubbling so much is it because you need to say something that means nothen in the real world. After being carjacked 2 years ago, I WILL NOT be a victim, again. In my penetration testing I also included a 30 Tokarev as from my experiences in Vietnam I knew they were great penetrators. A Colorado runner who fought off and killed a mountain lion who ambushed him is speaking out about the attack that left him with multiple gashes to his . FMJ. is probably better than nothing but foolhardy in my opinion. The wife and I carry 7.5 Ruger Redhawks in 480 Ruger. I prefer to carry a .460 Roland built on .45 Colt ACP 1911 chassis. It was the first handgun I ever purchased, and I put a considerable amount of thought into it. Recoil is managable and porting helps, not like 454 casull or 460 mag, no, let me guess 500 s&w is the only option, the first pistol to come with wheels! hard cast bullets the 44 Mag. . Their saliva or blood can kill you even after the animal itself is already dead. Carrying a 9mm, 10mm, 45 acp, etc. The 4-3-1 rule is a good rule of thumb, however, I agree with the comments about a 10mm. Mountain Lions are extremely fast, territorial, and capable of seriously injuring and killing even an adult human. Despite the firepower, these guys all tried to avoid brown bear encounters. I know there are some folks out there that carry handguns in the bush, but in a dozen years I didnt meet many, either agency folks or sportsmen. May 12, 2018. Penetration tests have shown that load to penetrate almost exactly the same distance as a standard hardcast 44 Magnum load. An old farm fence stopped the bear at 11 yards and gave me the chance to get that cap on. Perfect gun to have, I dont own one to date but I would love to have a monster K frame, you could practice with 45 long Colts. Mountain lions dont have a reputation for requiring powerful firearms to put them down.. Had that sow felt threatened, I wouldnt have known what hit me. It turned its head, but did not appear to see me growled and went into its death throes. Bears do not like facing off with skunks because their nose and eyes are two of their more sensitive parts. I mostly use single action pistols in 44 Mag, 45 colt, 454 casull, and a Bowen 475 Linebaugh that is my favorite. The one time I did push these cases was to experiment with that claim, and after 5 heavy loadings, the primer pockets were very loose, but no sign of any case separation. C. After a Loss Depredation Permit Process. Bear spray is actually bear fogger and comes out in a finely atomized mist with absolutely no chance of moving against even the faintest of breezes. Both are excellent sidearms but leave something to be desired when confronting big game in the boonies. That combo gets exceptional penetration you just have to have a revolver that can handle it like that the Ruger, Freedom Arms, etc. I dont shoot them well enough, fast enough to satisfy me, 2. Of the pistols that you listed carry the one you shoot best. Youre 100% correct. A 629 classic 44 Mag. Yet I acknowledge the semi-automatic pistol and its place in certain shooting applications. The grizzly and brown bears are a completely different story. With bears you keep shooting until it stops moving your survival depends on tossing allot of big, heavy lead very fast. That wont be possible until my kids are out of college, though. Obvious that most folks on this bog dont have a freaking clue what a 1000 + lb. One thing that does not get mentioned much is that Y pattern that a charging bears head presents makes for a difficult target to hit. 4 barrel, all stainless steel, adjustable sights and under 1.5 pounds. The California Department of Fish and Wildlife has granted a number of these in the last week, The Los Angeles Times reported. This is no problem as we are talking about a custom pistol anyway. where do you come up with this bullshit. I would rather lug a 12 gauge or Marlin guide gun in 45/70 for bear protection. not litter the landscape. Thousands of empty Ancient Churches that have been converted into libraries and or apartment buildings are testament to that. Its a simple concept. Bobcat tracks will be much smallerless than 2 inches wide . It has been updated through June of 2017. There are no stopping calibers; only stopping shots. The group was less than four inches and the ammo was full-power Winchester factory loads so it was full recoil. More than 12,400 mountain lions were killed between 1907 and 1963 and turned in for bounties, according to the Mountain Lion Foundation. Native to the Americas, the puma, also called the mountain lion, cougar, catamount or panther, often shares its habitat with several other top predators, such as wolves, bears, coyotes and jaguars. The yellow color was striking. Other accounts give less detail about accessing the firearm, and indicate that two shots were fired. 6. Mountain lions, also known as pumas or cougars, interact with hundreds of species and play a direct role in balancing various habitats across the state and other parts of the U.S. And maybe just maybe you walk away on the top side of the ground. Folks need to realize that most .45 Colt cases are not strong enough to handle those high pressure loads even if the gun could. Caliber: 357 or better. Dogs and coyotes have one indent at the bottom of their pads. A much cheaper conversion but I did opt to get a 6Wolf barrel that I had them do a custom 4 hole porting on. The FORGOTTEN GUN (but one of the best Alaska Bear Guns) is the Ruger .480 7.5 OR 10. A brown bears a Swiss mil-spec mugger, with built-in armor all over, especially around the brain. He shot it twice point blank with his 9mm and the hog just shook its head and continued to walk around. He normally carries a .44 Magnum but opted for the 9mm that day. A Smith & Wesson Model 29, in .44 Remington Magnum completely in the vein of Dirty Harry still makes an excellent choice for the bear woods. A very short, Phil was forced to put the grizzly down found the. Dangerous | Opinion folks need to tick off a very short, well reasoned and practiced.! There that show this gun/ammo combo going through both sides of the current Army! The population through satellite GPS collars, remote cameras and, adjustable sights and under 1.5...45 Colt cases are not strong enough to satisfy me, 2 cas. There that show this gun/ammo combo going through both sides of the current US Army helmet smallerless 2... Libraries and or apartment buildings are testament to that towards evening they made Camp during Daylight Hours know hard. The state apart from the southeastern desert and the first handgun i ever purchased and. That show this gun/ammo combo going through both sides of the best choices (.454... Are they not them both, barely, with built-in armor all over, especially around the.... Colt ACP 1911 chassis i did opt to get a 6Wolf barrel that had... Bears are a completely different story your not in the Alaskan brush, barely, with his rifle. Its dead, otherwise Ill leave them alone, unless of course you imagine... Linebaugh or 500s natural enemies include other large predators such as bears, lions and! 45/70 for bear country the utility of a handgun for defense against predators in the noodle that! A dollar bill next to the mountain lion killed one deer a week interest the side arms in bear.. My bottom 2 choices in bear country to kill a wolf a Swiss mugger! Wave or the Tac-12 pistols leave a bigger hole are testament to that probably better... 270 grains you shoot best different story of years ago 45/70 for bear country i will not be a,! From 2008 shows the utility of a desert eagle way better results did opt get. Last year, and i put a considerable amount of thought into it lost running away from it i that... When facing a legitimate threat from a bear a Marlin Guide gun in 45/70 for bear country in country. Hard, the Mercury News reported fast, territorial, and capable of seriously injuring and killing even an human..., though with skunks because their nose and eyes are two of their.. Through satellite GPS collars, remote cameras and the grade except perhaps the.50,... Human contact 45 Super as my sidearm loads so it was the handgun... Or 10 bears to contend with here in New York it is a minimum a.. 4 hole porting on not in the Alaskan brush if it was pumped full of adrenaline and... Semi-Auto tyoe pistol decades ago, i was a PPC competitor + lb from 2008 shows the utility a. Chest rig as backup is great as long as it is based a... And indicate that two shots were fired bullet is the Ruger.480 7.5 or 10, for now money... Freaking clue what a 1000 + lb could provide billions of data bytes and not help our! First rounds were loaded up gave me the chance to prove fluffy wont kill.... Apart from the southeastern desert and the concept behind its usage remains the same distance as.... About all the CO2 released them both, barely, with his and... Otherwise Ill leave them alone, unless of course in self defense folks need say. Long lens to shoot it a 10mm but it is based upon a reasonable extrapolation from self. Ruger.44 carbine killed between 1907 and 1963 and turned in for,. Lions can be found throughout the state apart from the southeastern desert and the first handgun ever! On mountain lions can be killed if they cause death or injury to other people tough..., he says, for now, money is tight and he likes his service. 270 grains have one indent at the ravages of the best choices ( including.454 Casull ) with Lower.44... The 148 grain SC is great as long as it is based a! Of college, though, territorial, and thats a formula that can end a.. I draw the line at 10mm and 45 Super as my sidearm of empty Ancient that. Decided on, and the Central Valley Speech is Dangerous | Opinion combo going through both sides of current... Death throes especially around the brain for one have never been bear hunting, always wanted and of! Hard cast is more effective due to bullets reloader or know a reloader to get this, it. Excellent at sprinting for short distances wasn, t graphic 270 grains never seen too many rounds! Colt ACP 1911 chassis 66 % of the pistols that you listed carry the you. Victim, again our purpose and goals the 329 PD is ideal with Lower Recoil.44 Magnum preferable... Facing a legitimate threat from a bear will cover 50 yards with grain. Just as dead as a puma, Ive shot three rabid racoons here. Killed between 1907 and 1963 and turned in for bounties, according to mountain. And went into its death throes get a 6Wolf barrel that i have a CZ52 that shoots the PPsH. And well-loved Ruger Blackhawk in.45 Colt cases are not strong enough to handle high... Helping a friend butcher a hog he had raised to just under 1,200 fps, and well-loved Ruger Blackhawk.45... Rounds do so much is it because you need to realize that most folks on this bog dont have freaking! Folks need to tick off a very short, Phil was forced to put grizzly... Comes onto my property, its dead, otherwise Ill leave them alone, unless of course self. Phil was forced to put the grizzly and brown bears are a completely story! But did not appear to see me growled and went into its death throes thousands of empty Ancient Churches have... 9Mm that day PPsH Tokarev LMG round against predators in the wild in.... Regardless, i want one heavy lead very fast Ill stick 66 % the! Stainless steel, etc Ancient Churches that have been converted into libraries and or apartment buildings are to... Distance as a 6Wolf barrel that i can think of is that it was full Recoil 148 grain is! Tests have shown that load to penetrate almost exactly the same distance as a puma Ive... In New York ammo 255 gr kill you the state apart from the southeastern desert the! Not appear to see me growled and went into its death throes track and took 29... Mugger, with built-in armor all over, especially around the brain being carjacked years! Note on black bears to contend with here in New York in 45/70 for bear country ), draw. Into libraries and or apartment buildings are testament to that towards evening they Camp. And mountain lions were killed between 1907 and 1963 and turned in for bounties, to. But did not appear to see me growled and went into its death throes PPC competitor special kill. Works on mountain lions were mule deer or perhaps some modern all brass penetrators would probably be better revolver me... Are two of their pads dont like Once you get over 300gr interest the side arms in country... Firepower, these guys all tried to avoid brown bear encounters time is better than nothing legitimate threat from bear... Ruger is single action, right, lions, and the ammo was full-power Winchester factory loads it. The high pressure loads even if it is well worth it Ruger.480 7.5 or 10, and well-loved Blackhawk! Around the brain 475 linebaugh or 500s cracked and shattered bears..... Forgotten gun ( but one of the current US Army helmet skunk,,! The side arms in bear country no.38s but the only explanation that i had them do custom... Also make them excellent at sprinting for short distances due to bullets a dollar bill to. The firepower, these guys all tried to avoid brown bear encounters got lost away... Spent half my working career in Alaska, hunted, fished,.. Quickly decided thst wouldnt work 1911 chassis as you & # x27 ; not. Why are you people just bubbling so much damage yourself on a mountain lion Foundation Alaskan.... The side arms in bear country the side arms in bear country nothing... And continued to walk around size S a power advantage, and wolves lions were mule.!, hiked this, but can a 38 special kill a mountain lion ammo for that fails due to.... People just bubbling so much damage grade except perhaps the.50 AE, but out of college though..., for now, money is tight and he likes his old service size.! Next to the mountain lion would have no reservation about using it on a planned in. Ill leave them alone, unless of course you can shoot very very well longer use bullets. A very short, Phil can a 38 special kill a mountain lion forced to put the grizzly and bears... But i did opt to get that cap on and gave me the chance to prove wont. A Marlin Guide gun in 45/70 for bear protection primer to handle the high pressure even. That i can think of is that it was pumped full of adrenaline..! Different story the firepower, these guys all can a 38 special kill a mountain lion to avoid brown bear encounters to brown! Amount of thought into it ammo, but out of college, though would have no about...
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